JR Newsletter: 8 July 2012 (96)

Louis Scuderi wrote:

I thought that I would bring this VLDS of the 1829 JR5 dime to the attention of other dime collectors. This is a die state later than the Logan specimen with some additional growth at the edge of the reverse rim CUD and an additional die crack from the dentil above the center of the N of UNITED down to the letter. This is in addition to the crack off the upper right edge of the E in UNITED to the rim. We don't have much information on how these late die states break up and how quickly but it would be great to get other collectors to provide images of different states of this die as it broke up. The die state is rare and I'm not certain how many are out there but if anyone is willing to share an image please send them to me at cirque1 (at) gmail.com. Thanks. I will try to put things together for an article in the JRJ at some future time and will acknowledge all who contribute.

Louis

(editor's note:  click on any of the images posted here to open a larger version)

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We had a couple of responses to Jonathan Osborne's contribution about an 1800 bust dollar.  The first was from Peter Mosiondz, Jr.:

Hi Jon,

 

Welcome back to the best hobby in the world. I read your report of the 1800 dollar. My advice would be to return it for a full refund.

 

It is important never to buy an expensive coin without a guarantee of genuineness. I always advise my clients to insist of a purchase receipt showing that the amount paid is 100% refundable if the coin is not deemed genuine by one of the three major grading services. Personally I like ANACS for early U.S. as they attribute by die variety as well.

 

On the surface, and without seeing the coin first-hand, it appears from your description that the coin has been cleaned, tooled and possibly plugged. The plugging would account for some of the metal content that the examination revealed. Of course an assertion as to whether or not the coin is genuine cannot be made from here, although from your excellent description it does appear to be suspect.

 

In short I personally do not feel as if the money spent for this coin represents an advantageous purchase.

 

Stay well and enjoy your hobby.

 

Best regards,

Pete

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The second response was from David Perkins:

 

Jon, I read your article and the description of your new 1800 B-17 Dollar in JR News this morning. 

 

I scanned and have attached a page (image below) from my copy of Q. David Bowers Silver Dollar book (thus this page is “courtesy of B&M”) for the 1800 B-17, BB-196 (Bowers-Borckardt) Dollar.  In particular I note three items.  The plate photo appears to show the “rectangular cloud” you described under the area between S & O in STATES OF.  Secondly, note the information under the heading “DIE STATES,” especially the descriptions for Die States III and IV.  Die states are not exact, and your coin may have been struck from an “Intermediate Die State.”  Please also note that the die may have been be lapped or polished at different stages of its life, removing all or parts of die cracks and / or clashing.    Lastly, note that both the obverse and reverse dies were used only to strike the 1800 B-17 die marriage, thus the obverse and reverse dies are unknown mated to any other obverse or reverse.

 

You did not provide a photo, but the 0’s in the date appear to match the description you gave in JR News (“square-ish”)?   The plate coin photo in the Bowers book is ex. B&M Brilliant & Sieck Sale:1277.  If you have this sale  catalog you can study the photo in the catalog along with the page I have attached.

 

I also suggest you go to the Heritage archives and look up and print the cataloger’s description for the two specimens of 1800 B-17 sold in the Jules Reiver Collection Volume III sale, Signature Auction January 24-28:  Lots 23620 and 23621.  In particular note the very detailed descriptions provided – you should compare the descriptions written for these die states with your coin.   

 

As to whether your coin was holed and plugged or is counterfeit I will leave this up to the experts you share the coin with.  You are welcome to bring the coin to the Philadelphia ANA Convention and the JRCS annual meeting – there are lots of experts at the show and JRCS meeting that could give you their opinions on all of this.  The major grading services also will be at the ANA Convention. 

 

W. David Perkins

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 After receiving more than a few email responses directly, Jonathan Osborne wrote back to us:

WOW!  You guys are great!!  Just got back from work to see responses from five separate JRCS members!  Thanks so much!  I am taking the coin to Julian Leidman tomorrow to see (1) if it’s real or electrotype/struck counterfeit, (2) if the ‘wrong cloud’ thing is obvious or not (and reason for that), and (3) if it’s been holed and ‘repaired’.  My main concern, and the reason why I think it was plugged, lies in the fact that an electrotype copy or struck counterfeit is not expected to have such excellent (and correct) detail over the majority of the coin, but the wrong clouds… I just don’t see it, but I also have VERY little experience with these major problems.  My collecting experience has been limited to smaller denomination coins until this purchase.  I have attached a few photos that I took of the coin.  They are REALLY bad photos, I know.  I can’t get my phone to focus so close, and my camera is even worse than my phone… You should, however, be able to see what I mean by the statement, “the clouds are wrong”, though.  They don’t look like any clouds I’ve seen on any bust dollar of any year.

 

I have received a pdf of the BB-196 page of Bowers (thanks to W. David Perkins!), and will work through that for the next 30 minutes or so to see if maybe I’m mistaken about the clouds, but I really can’t imagine that I am.  They just don’t look the way that all of the examples I’ve seen look.  Thanks also to Mr. Perkins for pointing out the excellent Heritage auction catalog for the Reiver collection.  I have my copy right here, and it was definitely one of the major resources I used in evaluating the coin on Friday and Saturday night (the other was Heritage’s online auction archives).

 

I definitely need to join JRCS again!  I feel bad that I left such an excellent community of people just because I couldn’t afford to buy anything and was spending time doing other things over the last four or five years.  Who do I contact?

(Editor's note:  Joining the JRCS is easy.  The application can be found online):

  http://jrcs.org/membershipapplication.html

 

Thanks again, and I am so happy to be pursuing this interesting hobby again!

 

Jon

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Jon added some additional information in a separate correspondence:

Hello once again.  Here are some much better pictures of the 1800 B17 with the weird clouds, thanks to a friend of mine who has a much better camera.  Julian Leidman told me today that the coin was genuine and did not show any signs of tooling.  When I said that I thought the clouds looked weird, he said that there are different varieties and the coin could possibly have been tooled, but he didn’t think it was.  He was, of course, busy and had no real interest in my dollar so only looked at it for a minute or so.  I still think the clouds look weird… has anyone else seen clouds like these on a bust dollar?

 

Thanks again to everyone who replied to my request for help!  You guys are great!

 

Jon Osborne

Alexandria, VA  

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In the final contribution this week, Dave Pierce sent in a request along with an image of a bust dime:

 

I am hoping you can tell me something about this 1833 bust dime. I collect bust halves but came across this one.

 

Thank you

 

Dave