JR Newsletter: 19 December 2010 (15)

Just one contribution this week.

 

Jim Matthews wrote:

 

Congratulations to WZ on finding the late retained cud on the 1834 JR-4 dime! I haven't seen one of those yet and will now be looking for an example with the cud. That's a great find.

 

Russ Logan always said he believed all the reverse dies were used until a cud formed, at least from the period of 1829 on to 1837 from what we've seen, this appears to be true. There were seven reverse dies last used in 1829, but so far JRCS collectors have only found developed cuds on two of those (JR-4 and JR-5 from 1829). By the end of the series in 1837 the last few remaining reverses dies may have been retired for the design chance to the Gobrecht series, but any other dies are fertile grounds for searching to find cuds. There are at least a half dozen dies that were last used in the 1830s with no known cuds on them, so keep on searching!

 

Jim

JR Newsletter: 12 December 2010 (14)

Not much input this week, but the input we have includes images!

Hunter Wunch wrote:

I wanted to share pictures of my 1834 JR-4 which shows die cracks in the area of the discovery CUD.  The first zoomed image doesn't show the crack above the "T", but after shedding some light on the situation you can faintly see it through the crust.  Hope this helps with the die state progression.

Hunter

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Editor's Note:  You can leave comments here on the blog or send contributions to me at jrnewsletter (at) jrcs.org

JR Newsletter: 5 December 2010 (13)

From WZ:

 

Just Discovered 1834 JR-4 Capped Bust Dime with Reverse Cud over IT in UNITED!

 

While I may not be up to date on this particular R3 die marriage, I was unable to locate any examples with die cracks, let alone a Cud, in the area of interest.  Additionally, the EUSD does not mention any die cracks or Cud on this Die Marriage.

 

Upon examining the coin more closely, no other die cracks are visible on the Obverse or Reverse.  The EUSD mentions a crack from "Rim to Upper Leaf" on the reverse, but my example does not exhibit it - likely from its low grade and/or foreign material in that location.

 

This coin joins an extensive list of Capped Bust Dime's with known Cuds.  Per the March 2009 (Vol. 19, Issue 3) JRJ Census, 29 Die Marriages listed the presence of a Cud (Full or Retained), followed shortly thereafter in another JRJ article by the addition of the 1830 JR-2 retained Cud.

 

I would like to know if anyone else has an example of this Cud, or a die crack in this location?  If so, would you mind sharing in a follow-up JR Newsletter so that we can better understand the die progression of this die marriage - whether the reverse die chipped off instantly or exhibited signs of cracking followed by failure.

 

Thanks,

-WZ

 

Images of the coin (click to enlarge photos slightly):

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Mike Camp wrote:

Brad Karoleff wrote on 11-28-10, "I would like to hear suggestions on which die marriages we should present for study at the upcoming EAC/JRCS meeting for the "Happenings" part of the EAC Show..."

 

A reply to Brad Karoleff from Mike Camp former JRCS member #89.

 

I would like to nominate the 1827 O-102 half dollar die marriage.

 

It is a plentiful population marriage, which allows the study of many die stages.
Not only the Obv./Rev. but also it's third edge.
The 1827 O-102 comes in four different edge pairs!
It also falls into an unusually place in the Leaman-Gunnet edge study,
which is very helpful tool in researching die states.

And or maybe answering a question, was 1826 O-114 struck in 1827?
The L/G study shows NO production for O-114 in 1826 using the Edge Order
but it does appear in 1827.

 

I proposed a question to the Coin Zip membership about the possibility of a remarriage
with the 1826 O-114 and possibly adding more information of the useage of a second
screw press in this year.
1827 the most dies used in a year (62) for the series & largest mintage estimate

up to 1831.

 

Now 1826 O-114 and 1827 O-102 are said to share a reverse die.
A member posted a picture of an EDS of 1826 O-114, with a sharp unfilled "N" of United.
But 1827 O-102 does comes in a state with minor filling of the "N" (a radiused bottom),
and the LDS state of 1826 O-114 shows a nearly filled "N".

 

And Brad Higgins stated' "the edge comparison is needed to confirm this.
If the owners of entombed specimens would unshackled theirs.
Further this coin is common enough for many examples to study, whether raw or slabbed.

 

Thanks Mike

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From Jim Matthews:

Recent discussion among the JRCS members includes making available a number of copies of the 1984 Early United States Dimes 1796 - 1837 as there seems to be continuing demand for copies, yet few are available in the marketplace. The copyright of the books lies with the five authors or their estates. I believe this to be a great idea as long as the authors agree, and thankfully am not a lawyer to have to know all the nuances of the law related to these things.

 

On another thought that has been discussed, a second and revised edition of the dime book could be undertaken, one that includes expanded information on die states, remarriages of certain varieties and of course updated rarity ratings, along with the inclusion of the new 1803 JR-5 die variety. Without a doubt, a major revision like this would take considerable time to accomplish, despite the fact that the information, photographs and knowledge would be forthcoming from the many collectors! 

 

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Richard Meaney wrote:

I read Brad Karoleff's request for coins to study at the EAC "Happenings" and thought it would be neat for half dime collectors to offer a "type set of capped bust half dimes."  Most of us don't think too much about the different design types of half dimes, since we are too busy trying to find out if a certain coin has the desired characteristics for a specific die marriage we need or want.  Consider what a type set of capped bust half dimes might entail and how easy it would be to differentiate between the different types while showing a half dime novice the differences:

-Three Pale Gules

-Two Pale Gules

-Border Dentils

-Beaded Dentils

-Narrow Dentils

-Regular Date

-Small Date

-Regular 5C

-Small 5C

-Regular Arrows

-Modified Arrows of 1834 LM-2 and LM-3

I realize that there could be all sorts of additions to the eleven basic design types I have listed, but I wanted to keep the list manageable for whomever gets to show off the coins.  Anyway, I hope my suggestion generates some other discussion on the topic.  Now that I've written all that, I'm sure some of you are scratching your heads, wondering "what modified arrows of 1834" is he talking about?  I don't know if something has ever been written about it, but I sure see a different design type on the arrowheads of 1834 LM-2 and LM-3 half dimes!

JR Newsletter: 28 November 2010 (12)

Brad Karoleff wrote:

A few comments concerning the last newsletter:

  

Per Ricky Beale's question, the JRCS does not keep a condition census for early silver

JRCS does do the early silver coins.  We have a census for each denomination that is reported in order from half dimes through dollars.  All of the dates from the earliest through the end of each series is covered except for the half dollars which have a separate census that is published between the quarters and the Capped Bust series.  We do not keep, in house, a separate updated census.  Some individual collectors do this research on their own.  We would love to see some articles from them on their insights.

Steve's input will give a very good idea of the approximate value of the coin in question.  I think all half dollar collectors should order Steve's AMBR for price research.  He also donates a portion of each sale to the club.  Thanks Steve!

Brad also wrote:

I would like to hear suggestions on which die marriages we should present for study at the upcoming EAC/JRCS meeting for the "Happenings" part of the EAC Show.  Typically, we choose one die marriage from each series collected by JRCS members.  Also, we will need volunteers to staff each table during the happenings part of the show.  Volunteers will answer questions asked about the coins and ensure the coins are secure/accounted for.

Brad

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David J. Davis wrote:

While filing away a few of my recent auction catalogue purchases today, I came across an early C/S dollar for the people keeping track of same.

The George Farrier sale 5/2/1876 Lot 753 listed an 1801 dollar "Fair, but stamped R. & L."  It would be hard to tell what that grade would be equivalent to today, but if someone should have the coin, they now have an early provenance for it.

Also:

Here is a message to all of you who have written an article for the JR Journal or would like to:  Time to fire up your word processors and make a contribution.

I talked to Brad Karoleff yesterday and he needs some more articles for the next issue.  To keep on some kind of schedule Brad needs a steady stream of copy.

NUFF SAID!!!!

David J.

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Glenn Peterson wrote:

A reply to Raymond Hale from Glenn Peterson:

      I appreciate your interest in the reeded edge bust halves. There are reasons for me to NOT include those in my book. The CBH form 1794-1836 lettered edge have the letters, stars, numbers and denomination engraved by hand and have idiosyncrasies in their placement. The engraver extensively modified the portrait and eagle as well leaving their unique traces on each coin. To the best of my knowledge the letters, stars and denomination of reeded edge halves are placed in the HUB and the portrait is not modified as is the case in lettered edge halves. I believe the date is entered separately and does provide some clue as to the die used. Also cracks are used in Reiver's VIM to identify die pairs. Attributing the reeded edge halves is a whole level of higher complexity than attributing lettered edge halves and one I have not mastered.

     The degree of modification of the eagle was the topic of a presentation given by me many years ago at the BHNC meeting at ANA years ago. The task I set for myself to identify all the reverses on 1824 by the eagle alone. Not that this is an easy or useful approach to attributing the 1824 reverses as there are many easier features to use to attribute the reverse of that date. But the fact is that it was POSSIBLE to attribute the dies just from the eagle shows the degree of modification the coiner made to the die before production. This is what makes identification of letter edged bust halves so interesting. I have identified my "key points" for identification of obverse and reverse dies of lettered edge CBH but my buddies in BHNC often choose quite different attribution points when they attribute their coins- equally useful points as the one's I chose for my book.

   Glenn Peterson

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From Jim Matthews in response to Richard Meaney's contribution showing an 1831 LM-3 half dime with cud:

First off, the 1831 LM-3 with the heavy obverse crack--retained cud must be quite rare, as you say, possibly R-7. I obtained one like your lower grade example 3 years ago, and if I'd seen that die state any time in the prior 20 years at a coin show or auction I'd probably have bought it. Furthermore Logan's wasn't nearly that late--with the die section through stars 2 to 6 stable, but the crack appears well developed. Obviously the example of the very late retained cud photographed in the book would be a true prize! I notice that Jules didn't have an example with the retained cud developed either (not in the main section or the back of the auction section of lower grade duplicates). Therefore, two major specialists did not obtain an example of this late die state, a strong indication of rarity.

I define an "early retained cud" as a coin where a portion of the die shows sinking (movement from the die surface level) in a defined area formed by cracks. A middle retained cud is where part of the devices are considerably weaker on at least one part of the cud area. A late retained cud is where these is little definition in the cud area but the opposing area on the opposite side of the coin is still well struck. A full cud is where the cud area has chipped away from the die, and the area opposite on the coin is also weakly struck (dentils/stars/date etc).

Does anyone else out there have an example of this rare die state of the 1831 LM-3 half dime?

JR Newsletter: 21 November 2010 (11)

In response to Rick Beale's questions last week:

Ralph Munoz wrote:  

Hello Rick,

Regarding your question about condition census for your 1807 50c O-105a r.4 - PCGS AU58 from the JRCS Newsletter of Nov 14, 2010.  Very interesting question about your coin and condition census.

Your coin is listed as an R4, with 80 to 200 known survivors.  You may want to get addition information or an opinion from Steve Herrman, who publishes the "Auctions & Mail Prices Realized for Bust Half Dollars 1794 - 1839" (AMBPR) at Herrman102 (at) aol.com.  He has been keeping track of this type of information for many years.  Your coin may be a condition census coin and could be tied with other multiple AU58's until additional higher grade coins become known.

Ralph Munoz JRCS # 30

and Steve Herrman wrote:

Per Ricky Beale's question, the JRCS does not keep a condition census for early silver.

With the caveat that I have not tracked the provenance of every specimen, following is a list in order of approximate overall "perceived value" of the 1807 O.105a half dollars offered in major auctions in the past 10 years or so.

  1. PCGS MS63, Bowers&Merena (Orlando) Jan 2001, Lot 194, not sold

  2. (uncertified) MS63, Stack's Jun 2006, Lot 566, $7475

  3. PCGS(CAC) AU58, D. Lawrence (Picky Collection) Mar 2010, Lot 7041, $7188

  4. NGC(CAC) AU58, Heritage (Long Beach) Jun 2010, Lot 737, $6325

NGC AU58, Stack's (Berngard) July 2008, Lot 4269, $7475

  5. NGC MS61, *slide mark on cheek, B&M (ANA-Los Angeles) Aug 2009, Lot 1284, $6038

NGC MS61, *slide mark on cheek, Heritage (Long Beach) Feb 2009, Lot 1262, $5463

NGC MS61, *slide mark on cheek, Heritage (Long Beach) Feb 2005, Lot 6949, $5175

NGC MS61, *slide mark on cheek, Heritage (ANA-Portland) Mar 2004, Lot 5805, not sold

  6. PCGS AU58, Heritage (FUN-Orlando) Jan 2007, Lot 4340, $5175

  7. PCGS AU58, Superior (Pre-Long Beach) Feb 2007, Lot 1516, $4945

  8. PCGS AU58, *thin scratch obverse, B&M (Baltimore), Jun 2010, Lot 2201, $4602

Regards,

Steve Herrman

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Liz Coggan wrote:

Thank you to all who participated in the sealed bid auction J J Teaparty conducted during the Whitman Baltimore coin show, for the 1800 LM-4 R-7 half dime in F-15+ grade. The coin sold for a strong price of $8,643.00

Please note, we will be conducting another sealed bid auction for another classic rarity in the Draped Bust half dime series at the FUN show in Tampa, FL in January.  We will be selling the 1801 LM-1 Rarity-7 which is VG-8 in condition.  A picture of the piece is below --as you can see the coin is dark, so we encourage you to review the coin in person in Tampa.  The bidding will commence at $6,500.  Please contact me if you have interest in bidding and if you desire further details. 

Best wishes,

Liz Coggan

You can click on this image to view a larger version

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Jeff Oertel wrote:

 

As a follow up on David's counterstamp listing, I am sending out a request. I am trying to compile a list of known counterstamps on bust dollars. I have the two editions of the counterstamp book, the three articles by David in past issues of JRCS, some records I have kept from past auctions and have about 20 examples of my own. If I can figure out how to make an article interesting, I thought that I would write something for a future edition of the Journal. Any assistance would be appreciated. Jeff Oertel

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Brad Karoleff wrote:

The JRCS Bust Dollar census will be the next census published in the JR Journal.  Please send your census information to one of the following addresses:

If you would like to send via US Mail:

John Reich Collectors Society
PO Box 135
Harrison, OH 45030-0135 

If you would like to send via e-mail:

bkaroleff (at) yahoo.com

editor's note:  Be sure to use the @ symbol when you send Brad an email.  I eliminate the @ symbol in this online posting so spammers won't pick up on email addresses and flood inboxes with junk. 

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Van (JRCS 1300) wrote:

Heritage Auctions has a nice variety collection of Capped Bust half dollars in our 2011 FUN auction. At this moment, I have the following three on my desk for cataloging:

1823 O-113 Genuine PCGS (Fine, lightly cleaned)

1827 O-148 Fine 15 PCGS

1831 O-120 AU53 NGC

The collection includes many other desirable pieces and catalog descriptions are now appearing at coins.ha.com.

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Raymond Hale wrote: 

I've long wondered why, within the framework of the JRCS, we end our study of Bust-Half coinage in 1836.

The Red Book includes mintages through 1839; various other well-known price guides use the same cutoff date. The design is, from what I have learned so far, basically the same--at least in terms of general motifs.

Yet, Overton ends in 1836. Peterson, et al, use the same apparently accepted and standard cutoff date.

So, wherein lies the answer? I have some thoughts--really they are questions. Is it because of the changes and advancements in minting technology employed beginning in 1837? Does it stem from the difference in coinage-diameter and/or design changes that those advancements wrought? Why do we start with Robert Scot's and continue with William Kneass' designs? And why not include the work of Christian Gobrecht?

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JR Newsletter: 14 November 2010 (10)

This week's contributions:

Van wrote,commenting on tips related to Raymond's question about attributing eBay pictures...

First of all... I pretty much just focus on Early Bust Dimes for my collection and interest. In my eBay experiences, here are a few of the things I practice...

1) I have a "Saved Search" set for very specific dime years that notifies me when certain postings come available

2) I basically only search for the attributes related to very specific Rarity-5 or higher dimes

3) I have a screen magnification program that gives me a 100x - 250x magnification window of everything my cursor passes over, which often compensates for small eBay photos... or at least gives me an improved detail view over what is given to me

I hope this helps...

Van (JRCS #1300) 

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David Perkins wrote:

New Attribution for 1800 Silver Dollar with FORCE Counterstamp?

For those early silver dollar and counterstamp collectors who are not a member of the Token and Medal Society (TAMS), there is an article in the July-August 2010 edition of TAMS Magazine by Bruce Mosher titled, "The Bells of Ephraim Force / The author's research leads to a new source of the "Force" countermark on an 1800 U.S. silver dollar."  I have noted in my copy of Merchant and Privately Countermarked coins by Gregory Brunk that the FORCE counterstamp is struck on an 1800 B-14, BB-194 silver dollar.  There is a photo of the obverse of this counterstamped silver dollar on page 381 of the Brunk book. Mosher notes that "past researchers have hinted that Jabez W. Force, a New York City silversmith (1819-41), was responsible for the counterstamped coin."  On the other hand Russell Rulau noted that this was highly unlikely as "the stamp is far too large and crude to be the hallmark of a silversmith."

Mosher writes that while researching an unrelated issue in early New York city directories, he came across the name of "Ephraim Force," a brass and bell founder, and a fire-engine manufacturer in Lower Manhattan.  He presents his research and evidence, concluding that he believes this man was responsible for counterstamping this silver dollar. 

 

For membership information for TAMS you may contact Mark Lighterman, 5224 W. State Red. 46, #408, Sanford, FL  32771.

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Winston Zack wrote:

Hello Capped Bust Silver Collectors,

I am selling my 1825 B-2 Late Die State, retained reverse Cud through A3 and Arrows, F-12+ (raw, but completely problem-free) Capped Bust Quarter.  If you are interested please see the link below and you may email me at stoneman101 (at) gmail.com

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=793519

Thanks,

Winston

Editor's note:  Here is an image of Winston's coin:

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Raymond Hale wrote (in response to Richard Meaney's post about a newly-purchased half dime with an obverse cud):

That's it. I'm searching for half-dimes from now on!

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Rick Beale wrote:

I have come across a very high grade 1807 50c O-105a r.4 - PCGS AU58. A Heritage auction listing (different coin) indicates an O-105a also PCGS AU58 was probably one of the top two or three of this variety.

My question is : do we keep a condition census in JRCS for early silver ? If so, where would my coin rank ?

I haven't imaged it yet. I'll stash a pic on my website and send the URL.

All the best,

Ricky B

Editor's Note:  Rick and his wife deal coins in person and on the internet.  The name of their company is "900fine Coins" and they can be found on the internet at http://www.900fine.com/

JR Newsletter: 7 November 2010 (9)

I guess the posting of a half dime last week with the threats of posting more spurred some people to action.  This week's contributions:

Charles Louie wrote (in response to Richard Meaney's post of an 1836 LM-1.1 Half Dime):

The coin is absolutely beautiful...
Thanks,
Chuck

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Ralph Munoz wrote:

Regarding Steve Hose's request.   I have an original Issue No 11,  (Vol. 4, No. 2/3 of December 1988) that I can copy, sorry no duplicates.  That issue was a dual issue.  FYI, I have a complete set of the JR Journals with the original mailing envelopes.

Ralph Munoz

JRCS LM020 & JRCS 030 

PS  Nice half dime.

Editor's note:  I forwarded Ralph's offer to Steve. 

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Raymond Hale wrote:

I've heard of some "great ebay sleuths" out there. Just today, I saw pictures of a half dime cherried by one of that breed.  I've enjoyed scouring ebay's listings for some time; yet, have purchased very few items. After a short break, I recently re-started my ebay hunt. But things are even more difficult: now, coins are listed with what amount to 2 x 2 pictures, that offer little or no detail.  I sit with my books on my desk, and try to attribute the coins in these listings. Usually I can't--So how do you do it???

I don't expect you to give away all your secrets. I just need some pointers. I'm not able to get to many shows; and, the shops around here have little to offer.  Can you please pass on some of the knowledge. This neophyte wants to learn how to id Bust coins, especially halves.  I know it takes time. But I am impatient. Lest I forget: thank you, to every one who helped me with my recent book search!

Raymond Hale

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Jeff Reichenberger wrote:

For those who may have missed it, I recommend reading the fine article about Indian treaty payments by Jon Amato in the latest edition of the Numismatist. Imagine stacks upon stacks of Bust Half Dollars.

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Richard Meaney wrote:

I wrote back to Raymond Hale with some quick pointers, knowing he is looking for rare bust halves (along with hundreds of other people).  This is what I offered:

1.  Look for just the rare ones.  Learning the common ones will take time and effort away from the rarities.  Strong R5 or better is my advice.
2.  Use the key pickup points in Glenn Peterson's "Ultimate Guide..." as a quick reference.
3.  Check ebay often and be quick about decisions on "Buy it Now" items.  Sometimes someone will put up a coin for a hundred dollars and it will be gone within fifteen minutes because of a Buy It Now listing. 

Interpretation of tiny pictures takes a lot of practice and a little luck.  I try not to waste my time attributing everything...if it is not a rare one, I just move on without ever attributing most coins.

I have another ebay find this week.  This one, in my opinion, is even neater than the last one.  I found an 1831 half dime with a tiny, blurry picture that I thought looked promising.  Here is the picture that was posted on ebay:

The item had a starting price of $80.  I figured it was worth many multiples of that if it was what I thought it was, so I bid on the coin just before the auction closed...and won.  The image below is one I took when the coin arrived (Clicking on the image will open up a much larger image for you, allowing closer inspection).

Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised that my suspicions were correct.  The coin is an 1831 LM-3 with an obverse retained cud.  I don't know of too many examples of this R-4 half dime that exist in this late die state.  Off hand, I think there are maybe four others that I know about (if you have one, maybe you would like to contribute and let us know about it...images would be cool too).  I don't mind one bit that a third party grading service would not consider this coin to be "problem-free"

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Looking forward to more contributions before next week's issue!